The Way of Ancients

[Scapegoat]

continued from temple of lore:

http://www.temple-of-lore.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=31825

[Solitaris]

Imho, this doesn't help any. Post exactly what you want to see changed, else Nihil doesn't know what to change.

[Tyra]

I'm perfectly fine with the banned and reserved list. these cards have no place in a good tournament/play scene

though I do not like the reserverd list



The following cards are "RESTRICTED":

Paradigm Shift
do STILL not see why with Flux banned.

Phantasm
not a problem card imo

Into the Tunnels
Improved Invisibility
now here I can see why the cards are on the restricted list.

Fields of Bone
really, imo not a problem

Perfect Self
I've yet to see a functioning and winning deck with perfect self

Kapix
Toren Yscar
Supply
these cards I am biased. I am leaning towards no restriction, but then again the pure power of these cards is incredible.

Archer Tower
Nodwick
Helm of Undying
on these cards I don't think a restriction is necessary.


the whole list looks to me to nerfstick the wizard control decks. they were strong, I agree, but they were no where close to be unbeatable

[Chaosnake]

Phantasm is a very strong card, in some decks, drawing it first turn basically means game over.

I agree with you on Perfect Self, only because it is a little more difficult to use, and the decks that do use it easily (Chyre, Kedric, sometimes Jodin Drac) aren't consistent enough, there isn't a warlord that can use it just by itself.

Disagree about Nodwick and Helm of Undying, both those cards are probably closer to needing to be banned than unrestricted, but I think restricted is a good place for them.

Kapix I kind of agree with you, because while Supply is pro-active (and re-active I guess), Kapix isn't that useful against some decks, and is basically meta.

Not sure how I feel about Paradigm Shift at the moment.

[Nihilistiskism]

Fantastic. I'll get to this after dinner.

-nihil

[Draven]

i have not played a single game of ancients. But just the fact that this got people using their old cards again makes me all for it.

[Nihilistiskism]

I'm perfectly fine with the banned and reserved list. these cards have no place in a good tournament/play scene

though I do not like the restricted list

Paradigm Shift
do STILL not see why with Flux banned.

Phantasm
not a problem card imo

Into the Tunnels
Improved Invisibility
now here I can see why the cards are on the restricted list.

Fields of Bone
really, imo not a problem

Perfect Self
I've yet to see a functioning and winning deck with perfect self

Kapix
Toren Yscar
Supply
these cards I am biased. I am leaning towards no restriction, but then again the pure power of these cards is incredible.

Archer Tower
Nodwick
Helm of Undying
on these cards I don't think a restriction is necessary.

the whole list looks to me to nerfstick the wizard control decks. they were strong, I agree, but they were no where close to be unbeatable

While I'd prefer you to create individual threads for individual cards I will address your concerns en masse, here:

Paradigm Shift: May be worth revisiting. It's a powerful utility card, but without Gravity Flux it may be considered balanced for the environment. This one will go to the council.

Phantasm: Singularly means "I win" for a great many decks. Draw/Retrieval is quite easily the most powerful tool a deck can bring to bear in any CCG. Phantasm is retrieval with 3 important caveats: 1) it brings your retrieved character directly into play, 2) it brings your retrieved character directly into play into your first rank, and 3) it brings your retrieved character directly into play into your first rank ignoring loyalty penalties. Those are three qualifiers that no other draw/retrieval card in the game is capable of achieving. The power level there is simply unmatched. I do not want to eliminate draw/retrieval in the game, and therefore the card only ended up "restricted." That, I think, was fair. There are several other options available to wizards for card draw/retrieval that are slightly less powerful. However, you are welcome to create a thread and discuss points fully and thoroughly.

Fields of Bone: Was restricted with Havelin in mind. There was no effective measure of eliminating "I draw my entire deck while you sit and watch and then I kill you with something silly" without putting a restriction/banning directly on Havelin, himself. Having no desire to eliminate any Warlords from the environment, FoB was the clear choice for nerfing. This has not solved the problem fully, however. I witnessed a very consistent Havelin deck at Gencon abusing the same FoB multiple times per turn via cards that have been introduced into the environment with 4E (necklace of spell storing/dark heart of kilnion). That deck did not make 1st in the tournament, or even cut, but it did achieve higher placing than over half the field, marking to me that Havelin is still a contender, though severely nuetered.

Perfect Self: May very well be worth revisiting, though it is restricted for the same reason Improved Invis and Into the Tunnels are restricted. It is a stall-tactic card with incredible potential for abuse. Much as playing Improved Invisibility multiple times over multiple turns can crush opposing offensive tactics, and Into the Tunnels achieves this through resource deprivation, Perfect Self achieves the same. Feel free to create a thread for it.

The rest...if you have specific points you'd like to make, please create a thread for individual cards.

I'm completely open to discussion, here. That is the entire goal of this forum. To discuss the format, and possible changes thereto. Take me up on that and you might be surprised at how open-minded I can be.

-nihil

[Docnessuno]

From a long time lurker, and probably as the only member of the Italian WL community strongly interested in the ancient development, i'd like to add some comments on the current state of the format.

I really appreciate the effort Nihil is putting in this format, and i think the banned/restricted/reserved list is currently quite good. Commenting on what have been said so far her's my opinion:

Paradigm shift: the restriction on this card is necessary, since against any cavalry deck it means basically spending a ready WL or stunning a spent one, free of any cost, and with the bonus effect of messing up the enemy rank structure.

Toren yscar: I'd like a lift on the restriction too, but it's not really on my priority list

Phantasm: Phantasm + avatar of spirit = very high chance of dealing 3 auto-wounds with just a spend order from rank 3, and that is just one of many possible uses. restriction is needed imho

Olivark the Quiet: this is probably the only example of a card that is not over the power curve (or part of an infinite combo), the problems related to Olivark are caused from bad wording of the card and weird rules iteractions. I'd really appreciate a removal of the ban coupled with an errata of the card (After a character you control of the same faction as Olivark is targeted by an action (not a melee strike), kill Olivark: Cancel the action.)

Stonefist gargoyle: Err.. ppl on ToL are bitching about kaimi, wich is a strong but managable deck, and noone seems to remember the deck that has gone undefeated in the swiss and lost against kaimi itself. The sheer speed and damage SG is able to pull is impressive, and it is nowere near other fast decks. I seriously think something should be done about it, but tbh i have no idea abaut what to do (short of banning it, wich i would avoid)

That said, i think the main problem of the Ancient format right now it's only one:
Support
I can play ancient 1/year (kohit) and that's a shame.
When even that single tournament becomes a joke (come on, 40 ppl and 4 rounds with top 4? WTH?), it's time to ask ourself if the work people like Nihil are putting into the format is worth the time investment from them.

[kaipan]

probably as the only member of the Italian WL community strongly interested in the ancient development

lolilpop! lollipop! I am a fish!

[AragornRoR]

lolilpop! lollipop! I am a fish!

I have NO CLUE what this means, but it is hilarious.

[kaipan]

I have NO CLUE what this means, but it is hilarious.

nihil edited my message

i guess it's american humor

[Nihilistiskism]

hahahaha. The first time I've ever used my mod powers in the name of evil. It felt good.

-nihil

[Porter]

nihil edited my message

i guess it's american humor

Kinda like Foxy Knoxy. That one was pretty lulzy.

[kaipan]

Kinda like Foxy Knoxy. That one was pretty lulzy.

Still better than greek humour: that involves doing weird puns about one's nickname.
Must be the shit in cabaret skillz in greece right now.

[AragornRoR]

LOLOWNED!

(WTF is up with "Posts must be at least 10 characters"?)

[SlyfoX]

its ok so the short mentalitys like you are cant just wright WTf or LOL!

gaiba taste like chicken! XD

[Nihilistiskism]

Short mentality? I'm hoping there's a language barrier on that one.

Sometimes, not uncommonly, actually, there is no need for more than an iteration of "Lol" or "LMAO" or "WTF?" Sometimes, not uncommonly, actually, that is all that needs saying, because it conveys the message appropriately. This is the exact reason that such phrases exist in the first place. If they didn't serve a purpose they would not exist.

-nihil

[Porter]

Short mentality? I'm hoping there's a language barrier on that one.

Sometimes, not uncommonly, actually, there is no need for more than an iteration of "Lol" or "LMAO" or "WTF?" Sometimes, not uncommonly, actually, that is all that needs saying, because it conveys the message appropriately. This is the exact reason that such phrases exist in the first place. If they didn't serve a purpose they would not exist.

-nihil


So says Ancienthills

:rofl:

[Solitaris]

its ok so the short mentalitys like you are cant just wright WTf or LOL!

gaiba taste like chicken! XD

LOL !